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Post by Andúnë on Feb 19, 2004 10:58:18 GMT -5
I do not like Sam.
I do not like the Sam that was in the films, even more than I do not like the Sam that was in the books.
This morning I was doing a marathon listening of all three soundtracks back to back while copying out my Legolas talk for the third and final time. And when I got to the penultimate track of TTT, it really struck me how annoying Sam was.
What is the purpose of his speech at the end of TTT? To bring us out of the darkness and gloom surrounding the last few hours, into a land of cheesy hope and hidden-up-to-now bravery-in-the-smallest-of-actions? The speech was unbelievably clichéd, unbelievably sweet-sickening, and unbelievably repetitive.
Hasn't the miraculous bravery of the characters already been shown, more subtlely and believably, elsewhere? What about Galadriel's short and poignant - "Even the smallest person can change the course of the future", or Gandalf's wonderful - "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us". Those bits are what make the film so moving. We don't need some carefully-crafted (or so they thing) speech to pull us onto our feet.
And the way he lets Frodo step over him in RotK is sickening. If I were Sam I would have hung Gollum over a precipice with my Elven rope until he lost consciousness. Then perhaps carted him off to Mount Doom so he could bite Frodo's finger off. OK, a couple of holes in this plan, but it's better than dribbling tears while staring wet-eyed at a gorgeous little hobbit who's lost his mind.
And what's with the accent? He and Frodo live in the same place, the same town, practically the same house. They grew up together. How come they have different accents? And I reckon Sean Astin pulled it off terribly anyway.
Conclusion - During the Mordor scenes, far more camera time should have given to Elijah Wood.
Um, I meant to say:
Conclusion - Sam seems to me - not superfluous - but a character which I only grudgingly recognise as the hero of the tale. He shouldn't be. It should be Elijah Wood. Um, Frodo.
I seem to have completely lost the thread of this, um, thread.
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Post by Esteldil on Feb 19, 2004 13:24:56 GMT -5
Why not just change the title to "All those who fancy Elijah say 'yay'"?? I think Sam is most def. NOT a superfluous character. I do agree that his TTT speech was a tad too 'Hollywood'. And his accent is very very very dogy (esp bit at Osgiliath in TTT "do you wanna know why your brother died") The 'R's are almost tangible. Anyway. I think there is a reason for a differinga ccent. Maybe Tolkien was trying to show a class division? (that's not so apparent in film) I think the reason Sam may seem a bit false/ gay to our modern viewing is that we're not used to such devotion from a servant. In Tolkien's day (probably evenmore so for JRRT himself as he was upper-class) this would probably be touching. And, inf act, I do find it touching. Especially such scenes as "I can't carry it for you, Mr Frodo, but i can carry you!". Those are the bits when Sam really takes shape. I think too that PJ made a bit of a mistake trying to put Sam in a modern context (in the film, he is portrayed more as friend than servant) but with same personality and naivety and simpleness. If PJ had kept original relationship, maybe emphasised it a bit more (like he does with Boromir really respecting ARagorn at end of FOTR), then you would have found him less of a grating character. As for hero, perhaps not. I shall think on that a bit more. Maybe it would have helped too if Sam had had blue/green eyes too?  |
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Post by RastNim on Feb 20, 2004 21:55:04 GMT -5
Sam is my fav character...*stares grimly*
I love him he is so sweet and loyal, he will follow Frodo to the end even though he doesn't have an adventurous bone in his body. He is only a simple hobbit who has lived his life in the Shire and never wanted to leave it before but now he follows Frodo even though he really doesn't want to. He is sooooo cute how can you not like him.
On the contrary I LOVE his speech in TTT it is the only point in that film where I properly cry. It is so touching, I don't think it is Hollywood, I think it is lovely, it is to give Frodo hope as he has lost it all at that moment. It is also the thing which changes Faramir's mind, so it must have meant something to him.
I do quite agree that they are brilliant and they are some of my fav lines but I still love Sam, what have these got to do with it, Sam is allowed to ahve good lines and I think that his ones are.
The line that makes me burst into hysterical tears is also one of Sam's and one which I have mentioned before many times I'm sure the "Rosie Cotton dancing, she had ribbons in her hair..." that line just gets me and I can't help but burst into tears.
I do admit however that he is a bit useless when it comes to the whole Gollum wants to kill us thing. he knows perfectly well that Gollum is going to try and kill them as he hear dit but he doesn't press the subject and just lets Frodo beat him down.
The accent I also agree on...awful and not at all consistant.
I agree with Figwit, we are just not used to people being so loyal in this day andage, to us it seems strange. I think that it is so cute though, I do wish that Frodo and Sam had been more affectionate though, as even on Mount Doom that hug seemed a little bit forced as if they really didn't want to be hugging.
Overall however I LOVE Sam to bits and think he is def not a superfluous chatacter (oh the joy of long words which PotC has given us such as acquiest and cessation)
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Post by Andúnë on Feb 21, 2004 14:36:07 GMT -5
Just like to state that I said he was not superfluous! Otherwise, I'll wait for some other replies before relaunching into my attack  |
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Post by Esteldil on Feb 21, 2004 15:29:59 GMT -5
ok, you hate him?
You've given the following reasons:
- accent (Tolkien was a class-snob, among other things, but yeah, Astin has a real problem with lapsing in and out of it.)
- dodgy TTT speech
(which I don't think is the real thing that changes Faramir's mind. i think it was seeing the Nazgul and then seeing Frodo, influenced by ring, trying to kill Sam). Besides, even if he was influenced- he shouldn't have been; it was the realisation that some things are evil and will drive you mad (ie his brother) and not because of the "stories that really matter".
- he's soft and let's Frodo beat him down.
(Frodo is his master. He trusts Frodo and probably would obey him completely.)
OK, Sam isn't my fave. character but I do think he's great in the book and protrayed well by Astin. but, the master-servant relationship should have been more empahsised than friendship. not to say that they aren't friends but it puts his simple devotion to Frodo more believable.
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Post by RastNim on Feb 21, 2004 20:05:49 GMT -5
Sam is by far my best charachter too, yay thank God, Lora hates him as well and I can;t see why. He is a wonderful sweet charachter and I love him. I think personally that Astin did a good job at portraying him, maybe that is just me...
I love Sam, I'm sad that people don't like him, I really don't see anything SUBSTANCIAL to hate about him, he s loving, loyal, sweet and overcomes his fears to be brave and help Frodo, who couldn't love that?
Please tell me a good reason why he should be hated, and it can have nothing to do with the portrayal of Astin, only from the books. Astin I think as I have said was good, but that isn't the point at the moment.
(sorry Figpeep about the use of the word superfluous, will not happen again)
I just realised the word moment has ent in it...wow...random.
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Post by Andúnë on Feb 22, 2004 5:00:38 GMT -5
The way I remember how to spell "independent" is because Sabrina the Teenage Witch says: There's no "aunt" in "independent". There's an "ent", but not an "aunt". Hee hee  I can find less wrong with Sam in the book than Sam in the film. Sam in the book is alright - he's really brave, for a wuss, so I suppose I should like him for that. |
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Post by Arrie on Feb 23, 2004 15:31:49 GMT -5
I can't say I don't like Sam, but I wouldn't call him my favourite character either. He has a loyalty and bravery that I lack and I admire him for it, but there's something about Sean Astin that I don't like very much. Not sure what it is.
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Post by Esteldil on Feb 24, 2004 14:28:12 GMT -5
I've only ever seen him once arriving at last year's Oscars and he just struck me as soppy.
That and the fact that he can't keep the accent annoys me a little. but I think he plays Sam really well for the most part, especially the "Coming, Mr Frodo, lines" very cute
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Post by Arrie on Feb 24, 2004 17:27:58 GMT -5
I suppose an English accent is hard enough for Americans, never mind a local one. If you get me. But yes, that is annoying but it's satisfying to point it out during TTT.
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Post by RastNim on Feb 25, 2004 17:22:49 GMT -5
Ooops...sorry Lei, just saw what you put, you did indeed write not superfluous..my bad, can you ever forgive me  |
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Post by Andúnë on Feb 26, 2004 15:30:27 GMT -5
No problem! I've never been able to put my finger on exactly why Sam annoys me. Reading some of your replies, I'll have another go at explaining. It's a combination of a few things, really: - His accent. - The way he says "Mr Frodo". In FotR he doesn't say it that often. And juxtopose that with Merry and Pippin and everyone else calling him just "Frodo", the occasional "Mr Frodo" is rather cute. But in the later films it happens all the time. And that just gets annoying. His name isn't "Mr Frodo"; it's either "Frodo", or "Mr Baggins", for heaven's sake. - His soppiness. Call it loyalty, servitude, whatever, but IMO you can be loyal without being like Sam. - TTT speech. Would never have happened in real life. Background music, etc, might have made it work in fantasy, but in this case didn't. Should never have been included. - Too many scenes with him standing and blubbering. - For some reason, he doesn't just sit down and explain to Frodo in a clear-headed, adult, mature kind of way, what Gollum is up to. - He's too good throughout the films. He's also in the position of wronged. That is what defines his character - that of martyr. It's boring. NB: I have no objection to "martyr" in general, as long as he or she fights for it in a cool way. I have no objection to Joan of Arc, for example. |
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Post by Esteldil on Feb 27, 2004 15:01:43 GMT -5
Ah! I see now we have come to understand each other.
Vicious circle really. He is in a position to be wronged. And so he is done. which makes it worse. YOu're right- terrifically boring.
I suppose it is possible to be loyal without being "soppy" but for him, I think that's the only way he can be.
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Post by RastNim on Mar 4, 2004 17:34:10 GMT -5
Aww I am still fond of little Sam but I do see your point about him being a bit....useless. He lets Frodo push him down I agree, he is still my fav tho as he is so cute.
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