The Balrog Issue

[Andúnë]

*Intake of breath*

Being the hardened Tolkienites that you all are, doubtless some of you will have come across the Balrog issue.

Declared the Second Most Contentious Tolkien Subject In The World, its discussion has been banned from many a forum.

Since our forum is new, and its peace yet to be disrupted, I thought I might have a go at disrupting it.

Do Balrogs have wings?

[Arrie]

Well, we're starting new threads all over the place, aren't we? Hehe....May I ask, what is the First Most Contentious Tolkien Subject?

I don't know. I really, honestly, don't know. I'll have to have a think or else I shall make a fool of myself.

[Esteldil]

Balrogs have wings because PJ thinks they do, and as we all know, PJ is god. (well, maybe Viiiiggo/ MortAgorn is).

Hm, I'm going to read a bit of this then come back to it, but at this time, I'd think no.

Anyone else?

(yeah, what is the first?)

[RastNim]

I said before what the number one debate was...but SOMEONE deleted my post lol - It is who or what is Tom Bombadil.

As for the Balrog debate, I alway thought they had wings, I don't think he was using some random simile I think they really did have wings, I'll go read it again mine before I discuss more. For now I am saying Yes, balrogs according to me had wings.

[linaeisilme]

Remember poi, we looked it up.
apparantly in loptr [this ois according to my memory]
the balrog was surrounded by shaddows stretching out.
ands i think they were the wing things...so i think
he didn't have wings, but there were shadows which looked like wings.
that made no sense.
The balrog does not have wings.
according to me.
there.

[Andúnë]

The actual passage from the book is:

--------------------------------------------------
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
`You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.
--------------------------------------------------

It seems to me also that the Balrog didn't have wings. But I think people can name other sources, not in LotR, that say they do.

[RastNim]

Uh yah but poi, this is a much discussed topic, it is not just that passage that we looked at that says so, it has been discussed since before we were born whether or not it did or not. It hasn't been solved Bob so you can hardly say just cos we looked up that one passage and yes I do remeber it but I still believe it had wings.

You may be right Peep but there are MANY other sources where it seem that they do, thanks for writing it out btw saves me looking it up.

[Andúnë]

Granted.

Could you name some of those other sources?

[Arrie]

That makes me think that it has wings. But in the film when they fall, if it had wings, couldn't it just have flapped them and got back up? Sorry to bring in a non-book point, it was just a thought that struck me. It was probably under a lot of stress anyway, what with a Gandalf hacking at it.

[RastNim]

It could have done, perhaps it is because they are useless wings like an auk's or penguin's, it cannot actually fly with them...don't really know lol.

I will look for more sources they are all around that point in the book and they are also into one of the HoME's. Will try and look for you, can't promise anything though.

OOOH, have found a whole load of stuff but is too late to post it all now, will do it 2moro ok.

[Esteldil]

but surely if they were redundant wings, the wings "stretching from wall to wall" would hardly be menacing.

I don't think Balrog's have wings. I don't think they really have much shape. More spirits that are surrounded by fire and shadow that blocks and almost consumes light (like anti-matter...yay!). I found this passage on a website:

In appearance, the Balrogs were man-like, but fire streamed from them, and they were swathed in dark shadows. They carried whips of flame and induced great terror in friends and foes alike.

(not sure where the Balrog is described as man shaped though)

If anyone's interested, there's a whole article on it, which I haven't read completely yet as I wanted to read the sections in the book before so that I could form my own opinion first.
www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

The other thing is, the "wings" bit could just be a metaphor to show how pervasive the shadow and fear the Balrog causes is. I mean, after all, Legolas who isn't afraid of death etc., is scared of this. SO, IMO, the Balrog's more of a spirit, with fire, fear and blackness.

[Esteldil]

I was just rereading the bit when Gandalf was trying to close the door of Balin's tomb:

Gandalf speaks of the thing that was fighting against his spell:

All I caught was ghash: that is 'fire'....Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside

then further on, the first description of Balrog:

...it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form...flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and black smoke swirled in the air...

first, no descrpition of wings. at all.

secondly, all the movements we are told about the balrog involve:

...raced towards them...

- why not just fly??

...leaped across the fissure...

...stepped forward slowly...

so, if the Balrog had wings, why didn't it just fly an catch them?

Maybe an answer could be that the halls were too small for it, but that seems unlikely. Besides, this man-shaped form in the midst of the shadow and cloud would have to be HUGE if the wings couldn't fit. After all, the Halls of Moria are described as:

...vast roof far above their heads upheald by many mighty pillars hewn of stone. Before them and on either side stretched a huge empty hall...

and we know the Balrog isn't that big and so the wings, if it did have them and were huge, would not really 'fit' on the form.

Another reason I don't think it has wings is because it doesn't need them. It's undergroud- where on earth is it going to use them? I can't quite imagine the Balrog getting up early each day to sit on top of the mountains and do some exercise. So, maybe, even if it had wings, they'd be like Dodo wings (but then, read first bit of my last post).

I think I've said enough for now Am going to do some *work*

[Arrie]

Chickens have wings....sorry, didn't read the first part thoroughly enough. Too tired.

[RastNim]

Urgh...Lol I am waaaaay to tired again to look up any stuff on it. I have just watched Rocky Horror....yeaaaaasss it is v weird.

Balrogs, I am going to be annoying and say that I think they have wings still. When I can be bothered I'll prove it...I'm pretty sure they have wings...

Here is a pasted arguement from another site on MY side of the story -

The Origins of Balrogs
Tolkien used the word "Balrog" to describe a terrifying type of warrior he invented for THE BOOK OF LOST TALES, the first story of which was written in 1916/1917. This was "The Fall of Gondolin". There were hundreds or even thousands of them. In some battle descriptions Tolkien wrote about 1,000 Balrogs riding across the field (they were a cavalry force).

THE BOOK OF LOST TALES was Tolkien's attempt to create a mythology for England, and he abandoned the project in 1925, about the time he decided to create a wholly new mythology which reused the themes and many characters from THE BOOK OF LOST TALES. So this new mythology, which he called the "Silmarillion", was a very primitive version of the collection of stories Christopher published as THE SILMARILLION in 1977, but it wasn't directly related.

The "Silmarillion" mythology retained the Balrogs, and in the 1930s Tolkien rewrote it, producing the fullest version of "Quenta Silmarillion" that he would ever write. Christopher actually used some portions of this text for the book, and that unfortunately has contributed to the confusion many people experience about Balrogs.

A New Balrog Emerges
When Tolkien began work on THE LORD OF THE RINGS he really wanted to get his "Silmarillion" published (now conceived of as THE SILMARILLION, but still only very little in concept like the final book). He had no real inclination to write any more books about hobbits, but as he got rolling on the new hobbit story the idea of marrying the world of the hobbits to the world of the "Silmarillion" appealed to him, and he believed it would eventually help him publish THE SILMARILLION.

So Tolkien began creating what we today know as Middle-earth (it did not exist before then, and Tolkien had only rarely used the name "Middle-earth" in the 1930s, and it does not appear in any published text from before the 1930s). As part of that world he needed a series of perils that Frodo and his companions would encounter, and one of them was set in the ancient mines of Moria, which THE HOBBIT had established was now abandoned and in the possession of Orcs (or had been).

The peril in Moria started out as something other than a Balrog (Tolkien wasn't sure of what it should be at first), and when he decided it SHOULD be a Balrog he became dissatisfied with the way he had portrayed Balrogs in the past. Tolkien had already begun the process of transforming the Balrogs into fallen Maiar but this decision would not be put into written form until 1948. Nonetheless, he changed the physical description of the Balrog in Moria and altered its abilities substantially from those assigned to the Balrogs of earlier (now abandoned) stories.

This Balrog had wings, and was capable of exercising great power, and was nearly invincible. The Balrog detected Gandalf's spell as he tried to block the exit from the Chamber of Mazarbul, and the Balrog itself began a counter-spell, according to Gandalf. So the wizard used a Word of Command to break the down, and the result was a partial cave-in which buried the Chamber of Mazarbul and apparently the Balrog with it.

The Balrog survived the cave-in and rejoined its army, which converged with the Company of the Ring in the Second Hall of Khazad-dum by an alternate route. There the Balrog revealed itself fully, and the darkness with which it cloaked itself expanded. The wings were either shielded by the darkness or formed by the Balrog on the spot or else the darkness (or part of the darkness) was reshaped by the Balrog to take on the form of wings (and thus BECAME wings).

As you can see there really is a case for them having wings as well. It seems to me it was like many things in LotR, Tolkien changed it part way though and some reminants of the older and forgotten story showed through. There are parts of Unfinished Tales which do not make sense as Tolkien had nto worked outhow he wanted things to be and had kept changing them, it sounds like this happened with the blarog and the fact was, even Tolkien himself couldn't decided whether or not they had wings.

[Esteldil]

...fallen Maia...

yes yes yes!! exactly so. That really is what I imagine them to be, since they are so powerful.