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Post by Andúnë on Feb 22, 2004 14:38:11 GMT -5
Since Arrie asked what the First Most Contentious Tolkien Debate was, I'll invite your views on that too:
Who or what is Tom Bombadil?
My views:
If we were to put Tom Bombadil into a category of beings that we already know exist, it seems obvious that he has to be either a Maia or a Vala, for the simple reason that he is not an Elf, a Man, a Dwarf, etc. However, he feels no temptations whatsoever from the ring, whereas even Gandalf is wary of it, so Tom is probably higher than a Maia. But in the Silmarillion, all the Ainur who became Valar are listed, and the list is exhaustive. So he can't be a Vala.
It is of course possible that Tom Bombadil exists in a category of his own. His power is absolute, yet he has none. Does that make sense? So my own opinion is that Tom Bombadil is the representation (avatar, if you like) of Illuvatar on Middle Earth. He is completely at one with the world that he made. He wishes for no dominion, because it all belongs to him anyway.
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Post by RastNim on Feb 22, 2004 19:03:28 GMT -5
This looks a good subject, but it is late and I have to go to school in the morn so I will leave it till 2moro night...I LOVE this subject, perhaps Lora and us could do a talk on it, if I can find enough, or are you planning to use it in a meeting already, if so I'll find something else, that stupid thing Do balrogs have wings GAH if I hear that one more time...ok going.
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Post by Andúnë on Feb 23, 2004 12:33:35 GMT -5
If you wish to do a talk on this, by all means do! Would it help if I close this thread now, so we leave all discussion until the meeting?
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Post by RastNim on Feb 23, 2004 15:20:17 GMT -5
Lol, I feel sorry for you now...ummmmmm...we could re-open it after the talk, perhaps it would have inspired people by then?!
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Post by Andúnë on Feb 23, 2004 15:39:06 GMT -5
Sure. Till then!
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Post by Andúnë on Mar 9, 2004 12:30:09 GMT -5
***Topic re-opened for discussion***
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Post by RastNim on Mar 10, 2004 17:49:22 GMT -5
Sooo, who do you suspect he is, I think that he is a maiar as there is for one, a lot of evidence to support that, he is not any other being yet he is powerful and mysterious, he has a sort og girdle around him also, like the girdle of Melian. Does anyone have a theory
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Post by Andúnë on Mar 10, 2004 18:13:43 GMT -5
Of course, I didn't hear your talk. But I disagree that Tom Bombadil is a Maia. He doesn't fit into any of the rules. He doesn't have any powers; nor any temptations. All the Maia had the potential to be tempted by the Ring - Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron included. And also, all the Maia in ME were sent to lend service, and I can't see of any service that Tom Bombadil gives - in fact he professes not to enter into the outside world at all. (The only Maia that I can think of that dwells in ME for pleasure, is Melian. She does it for love of Thingol. It makes me wonder what the relationship between Tom and Goldberry is exactly.) He is not a Vala, or at least not officially, since all the Valar are named, and Melkor being the one exception was not counted among them, but for special reasons. I still feel he is Illuvatar, even though you quote Tolkien's letter... perhaps Tolkien wasn't as knowledgable in the ancient lore as we think
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Post by Esteldil on Mar 11, 2004 15:10:28 GMT -5
I don't think he is a Maia although the evidence is strong. The reason being that if, as you say, Tolkien wanted to create TB in a group of his own- why would he just turn out to be a Maia?
Surely he is something more individual than that. Therefore, we can't really group him into anything that we already know exists in ME. So, in a way, Comma's theory is not as unproven as it may first seem.
Dare i suggest that Tolkien really had no major intent for TB other than to inject a little randomness? TB is never mentioned in anywhere else other than the WOTR, is he?
Comma's idea of TB being a representation of Iluvatur. Although, that's not unfeasible. Personally, I think of him being an incarnation of Arda. If Arda were a 'being' that could speak/ walk etc. then TB is it (am i making sense?) And Goldberry could be the incarnation of water. Not that Goldberry represents water and TB represents Arda. More that they are those things but in 'living' form. This could make sense as, like the earth, he is unaffected by power etc therefore not affected by Ring. He cares not for anything except the tending of his land. And within that land, he is all powerful. Even though he has the power to be powerful elsewhere, his self-imposed boundaries let him have his own little realm. Also, he is first and last as he is the earth so was first around and will be last to 'die'.
Anyway, that's just my view. Possibly very fanciful and wishy-washy but it's nice in my mind.
Oh here's another thought. Maybe Tom Bombadil is just Tom Bombardil and he is defined by what he does and is ie not a being which falls in a general category with set definitions but one which soley defined by just him?
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Post by RastNim on Mar 11, 2004 16:12:36 GMT -5
I agree, I think he is a sorta maiar but I also strongly think that he was just something Tolkien has added for mystery. I think that he is just a random being who is related to nothing....and like goldberry (lol). I think he is like Melian, as said in talk, as he has a sorta girdle but that os still a bit of a tenuous link really. Tolkien always said he wasnted Tom to be a mystery forever which I think is great and adds a whole new layers of mystery to LotR.
I am pretty sure he isn't Eru, not purely because of the Tolkien quote, in the talk we did have a whole load of points. He says he is oldest and fatherless, but he only mentions the dark before the lamps, no ness the very beginning of the world. I agree with Figwit, he is actually a small human sorta personification of Aman itself. Reasons for not being Eru lol -
1. He isn't powerful enough it is said by Glorfindel to stand against Sauron, let alone Melkor, so how is he all powerful Eru??
2. Many people at the coucil know Tom and when they hear Glorfindel saying this none object, suggesting that they too believe this, on of these people is Gandalf who, being an Istari, must have been one of the Ainur in the beginning and practically seen Eru firsthand. I think if he had any inclination that Tom was Eru he would have defended him.
3. Of course Tolkien himself states that there is no reprsentation of the creator on the earth itself.
It is an idea many people think is possible when it is, sorry, the least possible if anything. I agree that h could be sorta Eru though, like a little henchman sorta thing that is Eru's correspondant on earth if you get me. He is so attached to the earth it seems that he is is some way related almost so it could be that he is Eru in spirit or something?
2.
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Post by Arrie on Mar 11, 2004 16:57:08 GMT -5
Not quite sure what to say on this topic...I'm quite happy with the explanation that he just exists and there is nothing else quite like him. *shrugs* Probably just me being weird there.
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Post by Esteldil on Mar 12, 2004 11:18:49 GMT -5
Not ness, Arrie. That could well be much closer to the truth.
That's what I was getting at in the last bit of my rambling. The fact that he is a catergory all by himself, destined to be every mysterious and inexplicable. Therefore, he is anything he wants to be because that is his catergory.
But, that's a bit of a cop-out, i suppose. Saying that he's just him and nothing else therefore you don't need to prove anything about him because just being him means that he is those things.
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Post by Arrie on Mar 12, 2004 17:28:13 GMT -5
This is starting to make my head hurt....
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Post by Esteldil on Mar 13, 2004 13:47:03 GMT -5
yep. me too.
could, however, be due to overdosing on work.
yes, I'm sure that's the reason.
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Post by Andúnë on Mar 13, 2004 18:02:19 GMT -5
Reasons for not being Eru lol - 1. He isn't powerful enough it is said by Glorfindel to stand against Sauron, let alone Melkor, so how is he all powerful Eru?? 2. Many people at the coucil know Tom and when they hear Glorfindel saying this none object, suggesting that they too believe this, on of these people is Gandalf who, being an Istari, must have been one of the Ainur in the beginning and practically seen Eru firsthand. I think if he had any inclination that Tom was Eru he would have defended him. Yet the fact that he is Illuvatar doesn't necessarily mean that anyone knows it. In fact, it's highly unlikely that Illuvatar would make for himself a body (with which he simply wishes to enjoy the pleasures of the world he created) and let people know about it! One of these days I'll post my theory of Tolkien and Middle Earth in the Fanfiction forum. That explains away all of this fine
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